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Nonbinary Wiki:General discussion/Archive 1: Difference between revisions
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{{Archive for converted wikitext talk page|from=Nonbinary Wiki:General discussion|date=2020-04-08}} | |||
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| '''Join our Discord server!'''<br>Although this page can be very useful to keep track of important decisions, we also have a Discord server with some of our editors (and readers). You can join us in https://discord.gg/3mEyU8s. | |||
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This is the place where discussion between Non-binary wiki users happens. To create a new discussion, click the ''Add topic'' tab. Remember to sign your comments with <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>! | This is the place where discussion between Non-binary wiki users happens. To create a new discussion, click the ''Add topic'' tab. Remember to sign your comments with <code><nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki></code>! | ||
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== Rename the wiki to Non-binary wiki == | == Rename the wiki to Non-binary wiki == | ||
Basically, the problem now is that the project namespace has the capital letter: ''Non-'''B'''inary:General discussion''. I propose to change it to ''Non-binary wiki'' (also, it would follow better the [[ | Basically, the problem now is that the project namespace has the capital letter: ''Non-'''B'''inary:General discussion''. I propose to change it to ''Non-binary wiki'' (also, it would follow better the [[Nonbinary:Style guide|style guide]]. If nobody disagrees I will fill a request to Phabricator soon. (Ping [[User:Cassolotl|Cassolotl]] because active). --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 16:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
:I am totally down with that. :) --'''[[User:Cassolotl|<span style="color:#008000">Cassolotl</span>]]''' ''<small>([[User_Talk:Cassolotl|talk]]) <span style="color:#808080">pronouns: they/them</span></small>'' 21:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC) | :I am totally down with that. :) --'''[[User:Cassolotl|<span style="color:#008000">Cassolotl</span>]]''' ''<small>([[User_Talk:Cassolotl|talk]]) <span style="color:#808080">pronouns: they/them</span></small>'' 21:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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Most of the time I see people use AFAB/AMAB instead of "assigned female at birth". Do you think it's a good idea to make AFAB (or AMAB) the main page? That's how it is at the moment but I wanted to make sure that was a reasonable course of action. --[[User:MxLexicon|MxLexicon]] ([[User talk:MxLexicon|talk]]) 2:42 8 April 2017 (UTC) | Most of the time I see people use AFAB/AMAB instead of "assigned female at birth". Do you think it's a good idea to make AFAB (or AMAB) the main page? That's how it is at the moment but I wanted to make sure that was a reasonable course of action. --[[User:MxLexicon|MxLexicon]] ([[User talk:MxLexicon|talk]]) 2:42 8 April 2017 (UTC) | ||
:{{ping|MxLexicon}} I think that it's better to use the most well-known form for the page titles. I have added the last line to the [[ | :{{ping|MxLexicon}} I think that it's better to use the most well-known form for the page titles. I have added the last line to the [[Nonbinary:Style guide#Page names|Naming conventions]]. Edit it if you think it's inaccurate! --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 08:58, 8 April 2017 (UTC) | ||
:{{ping|MxLexicon}} Checkout [[Assigned at birth]]- Both [[AFAB]] and [[AMAB]] redirect there. I think the acronym works and makes sense, so long as it links to the explanation. --[[User:Pyrollamasteak|Pyrollamasteak]] ([[User talk:Pyrollamasteak|talk]]) Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 5:12:30 am (UTC) | :{{ping|MxLexicon}} Checkout [[Assigned at birth]]- Both [[AFAB]] and [[AMAB]] redirect there. I think the acronym works and makes sense, so long as it links to the explanation. --[[User:Pyrollamasteak|Pyrollamasteak]] ([[User talk:Pyrollamasteak|talk]]) Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 5:12:30 am (UTC) | ||
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:{{ping|Niki Skylark}} I don't think so. We can't force people to use a dialect when writing other than their own! Both dialects are mutually intelligible, so no problem in my opinion. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 07:58, 22 May 2017 (UTC) | :{{ping|Niki Skylark}} I don't think so. We can't force people to use a dialect when writing other than their own! Both dialects are mutually intelligible, so no problem in my opinion. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 07:58, 22 May 2017 (UTC) | ||
I think it would be better to go with British spelling because it is more globally recognised. --[[User:Otvm|Otvm]] ([[User talk:Otvm|talk]]) 17:36, 5 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Twitter account == | == Twitter account == | ||
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Just so everyone here is aware for including them in articles. There are several articles which could be updated to use the newer results. http://nonbinarystats.tumblr.com/post/164333379490/nbgq-survey-2017-the-uk-results [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 16:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC) | Just so everyone here is aware for including them in articles. There are several articles which could be updated to use the newer results. http://nonbinarystats.tumblr.com/post/164333379490/nbgq-survey-2017-the-uk-results [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 16:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC) | ||
:The link you provided is the UK-only results - the worldwide results are [http://nonbinarystats.tumblr.com/post/160656902130/nbgq-survey-2017-the-worldwide-results here], posted back in May. :) --'''[[User:Cassolotl|<span style="color:#008000">Cassolotl</span>]]''' ''<small>([[User_Talk:Cassolotl|talk]]) <span style="color:#808080">pronouns: they/them</span></small>'' 13:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC) | |||
:: Ha. Whoops. I didn't even realize they posted worldwide results :P [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 14:21, 19 August 2017 (UTC) | |||
== About stubs == | |||
Hi all, I want to discuss some things about the stubs. Basically, it can be summarised in the question "What exactly is a stub?" [[Demigender]], for example, is a long article which is quite complete and had the stub template. While [[ludogender]], for example, is a short article which is not considered stub. "Common sense" is a good method to decide if an article can be considered stub, but I think we should establish a limit. Should it be a byte limit or a character limit? | |||
There's another smaller thing: I think that the stub template should be placed at the bottom of articles, not at the top. The reason is that the reader already knows if an article is short or not. And although it might help to attract new contributors, I think we can't forget that the articles are for the reader, and the reader does not want templates that tell them obvious things. | |||
What do you think? --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 18:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Discord server == | |||
Hi all, yesterday I joined a Discord server for nonbinary people. It's the only one I know, so I thought it would be nice to add the link to our sidebar (''Social'' section) and promote it with our Twitter account. What do you think? The invite link is [https://discord.gg/CU88gcX https://discord.gg/CU88gcX]. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 10:34, 20 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Translating the Wiki == | |||
I think it would be a good idea to spread recognition of nonbinary people by translating this wiki into different languages. Many people speak English, but there are also many who do not speak English, and nonbinary rights may be more difficult to realise if some of the information about nonbinary people and their rights is not multilingual. While there are probably many non-English resources on nonbinary people and their rights and recognition, it would be better to have one too many resources in one language than to have too few in another. --[[User:Otvm|Otvm]] ([[User talk:Otvm|talk]]) 23:51, 13 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Otvm}} I'm not a native English speaker and in my native languages (Catalan and Spanish) there's not much information on nonbinary identities (especially in Catalan), so I think this is a good idea. But opening other language versions means having other users to maintain them. And while I could edit in a Spanish or a Catalan version, I don't think I could make them grow alone. I will tweet something to see if there are any volunteers who might want to help in other languages. Do you speak any other language? --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 09:57, 14 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
::{{ping|NeoMahler}} I am currently learning Norwegian, but I am not sure how much I could translate. --[[User:Otvm|Otvm]] ([[User talk:Otvm|talk]]) 20:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::{{ping|Otvm}} I made a [https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/comments/7r2324/nonbinary_wiki_in_other_languages/ post on reddit] and some users said they were interested in opening a new version in their language. There's French, Spanish, Polish and German (although there's already a [https://nibi.space Nonbinary Wiki in German], not related to us). I think that, for the moment, opening a Polish version is a good idea. The users seems really enthusiastic abut it. The next one could be in Spanish, as I also speak it. I'll send a message to [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] to see if it's possible to have a pl.nonbinary.wiki domain. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 17:26, 18 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::{{ping|NeoMahler}} Could https://nonbinary.wiki/ be a page which redirects people to their various languages while the actual website is moved to https://en.nonbinary.wiki/? It could be somewhat more friendly. I can also translate part of the wiki into Norwegian, but it could be slow. I also wanted to ask this: Should the name Nonbinary Wiki be translated, or would it be less confusing to leave the wiki name so it is identical to the website address? --[[User:Otvm|Otvm]] ([[User talk:Otvm|talk]]) 15:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{ping|Otvm}} well, I suppose we could do that... but it would be difficult and unstable (because we don't own the servers where the wiki is hosted, so would have to use another hosting service which basically means money). I agree that it would be better, but I don't think it's necessary for now. If we ever get bigger with a lot of language versions, then we could reconsider it. | |||
:::::The Polish version has been created with the name [https://pl.nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Strona_główna Niebinarna Wiki]. I don't think it is a good idea to maintain the English name, specially if the language has already a word for "nonbinary" (and most do, because it's just a compound form of no + binary). --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 18:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
Update: the Polish version has a single article, almost no edits. I have tweeted the link to see if we can find any contributors. Let's see if we can keep it active! --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 14:43, 2 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
== About the stub template == | |||
Hi! | |||
I think it would be an improvement if we placed the {{tl|stub}} template at the bottom of articles instead of at the top. In my opinion, our readers can already tell if a page is short or not, so there's no need to put a big announcement saying "hey, this page is short". | |||
Also, which limit would you establish for articles to be considered "short"? Ping {{ping|Wolle|Sevaquinn}} as the two active users in the last days. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 14:46, 2 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
: I agree, I like the idea of putting the stub template at the bottom, because it looks tidier that way. Personally, I consider an article a stub if it's less than two screens long when viewed on a desktop, OR if most of its headings only have a couple sentences under them. -[[User:Sekhet|Sekhet]] ([[User talk:Sekhet|talk]]) 15:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
: I think that the stub template is more to encourage participation, not for a purely informative purpose. I do however agree with the qualifications for being a stub. [[User:MorningSparrow|MorningSparrow]] ([[User talk:MorningSparrow|talk]]) 23:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Poorly-attested identities == | |||
I've created [[Nonbinary:What's a poorly-attested identity?]] and added the {{tl|Poorly-attested identity}} template to those pages that meet the requeriments. I've just used the content that was in [[List of poorly-attested nonbinary identities]], so I thought it wasn't necessary to ask for consensus. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 11:36, 6 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
== Templates needed == | |||
Hi, can we please have the wiki templates imported that handle citations and legends? They are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_templates and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Legend -[[User:Sekhet|Sekhet]] ([[User talk:Sekhet|talk]]) 15:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Sekhet}} I don't think we need to have ''all'' of them. I would say that with web site, book and journal is enough. There's a problem though, and it is that Wikipedia's citation templates use Lua modules. I have zero knowledge on Lua, so I don't feel comfortable importing the modules without being able to maintain them afterward. --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 20:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Requesting a MediaWiki extension == | |||
{{ping|Ondo}} May we please have the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Labeled_Section_Transclusion MediaWiki extension for transcluding sections]? This would be useful for something I'd like to do with the articles listing neutral names. If we have this extension, then I'll be able to create articles such as "List of neutral Hebrew names" and "List of neutral names about nature," and then use transclusion of sections to make an appropriate selection of names from the alphabetical name lists appear in these other articles as well, without having to manually duplicate each name entry in multiple places. If you find a different process for automatically accomplishing this, which would be more efficient than this particular extension, then I'd appreciate it as well. Otherwise, so far it appears that this extension is the most appropriate for this task. -[[User:Sekhet|Sekhet]] ([[User talk:Sekhet|talk]]) 04:02, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Sekhet}} done! Do you have access to [[Special:ManageWiki]]? I don't know if it's administrator or bureaucrat-only (in any case, it's good to ping each other if we want to enable new extensions). --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 14:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
::{{ping|Ondo}} Thank you! I don't have access to that special page. --[[User:Sekhet|Sekhet]] ([[User talk:Sekhet|talk]]) 20:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Content Policy == | |||
Hello, | |||
As the wiki grows in both content and community, I think it's time to put some basic policies in place. I think that keeping it simple is important, but having nothing can also be counterproductive. This is why I have written a Content Policy draft that you can read in [[User:Ondo/Content Policy draft]]. Feel free to edit it, but reply here before making any major changes. | |||
Let me know if you agree or not, and any suggestions or comments you might have. Thank you, --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 16:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
: This looks great! The only thing that’s missing that I would love is a statement acknowledging the intersectionality of these issues and that we will always prioritise the lived experience of groups at these intersections of oppression (ie: people of colour and two spirit). We’ve had some people recently fixing up content for non-English languages that we are not experts in, and we should make it clear that their knowledge is more valuable to us than our potentially outdated source material. [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 22:52, 15 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
:: {{ping|Falkirks}} I'm not sure I understand what you mean with that. Could you re-phrase? Or even better, you can add it to the draft directly! :) Also, the page has a couple of '''[BOLD]''' parts that need to be discussed. Do you have any ideas for them? --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 14:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
::: Perhaps its not a good fit for a content policy, but I feel like it should be written somewhere. I wanted it to point out that just because someone is non-binary doesn't make them qualified to write about everything in the wiki, we have a lot of content about non-western identities and non-English languages. And that as a policy someone who belongs to a specific group (eg: A two spirit person wanting to edit the article on two spirit people) shouldn't be edited over or argued with by people who are less connected to that identity. And even if our sources disagree with what they are saying, we should do our best to find new sources. I don't mean this to police anyone, just to make it clear to potential new editors that we want to support them. I will try to look at the other parts later today. [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 15:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
:::: {{ping|Falkirks}} if I understand what you are saying, I don't completely agree with you here. Trustworthy sources should be our main reference, even if the individual experience of someone doesn't completely agree with them. Of course, feedback should be taken into account and if someone who has direct experience tells us it's wrong, then looking for new sources is strongly encouraged. But we shouldn't change an article without sources just because someone says so. | |||
:::: In any case, I'm not sure if that would fit the content policy though. Maybe it would be more adequate for a Code of Conduct? I'll ping Wiki Users again in the Discord for feedback on the policy and if no one disagrees, the policy will be approved. Pinging {{ping|Sekhet}} what do you think? --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 10:51, 26 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
::::: Yes, it does seem better suited for a code of conduct. And I think for the most part I agree with you. I still think something should be formalised just acknowledging that this is a complex issue and that by providing articles about especially marginalised communities we have a duty of care to them. I could go on but I don’t want to detract from the content policy, so I will follow up sometime later about adding something to the code of conduct. Thanks for putting the content policy together! It looks great! [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 15:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
The policy has been approved: [[Nonbinary Wiki:Content Policy]].--[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 14:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Structured Discussions == | |||
Hi! There is a MediaWiki extension called Structured Discussions, previously known as Flow ([[mw:Extension:StructuredDiscussions|more info]]). It makes talk pages more easy to use and intuitive, so unless someone is against having it here, I'll enable it in some days. If I remember correctly, it won't be enabled for any talk page by default, so I'll start by enabling it in the General discussion (and then, if anyone wants to have Flow in their talk pages, we can do that too).--[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 14:41, 4 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Structured Discussions == | |||
Hi all! I've been thinking lately on how to make talk pages easier to use, and today I have enabled the Structured Discussions (also called Flow) extension (without enabling it in any actual talk page, just for testing purposes). In short, it's an extension that turns talk pages into forum-like threads, they are easy to use and have a simplified version of the Visual Editor to make things simpler. It's not the ideal solution, but I think it's an improvement over the current system. You can see how it looks in this test page: [[User:Ondo/tests]] (feel free to play with this page all you want! I don't mind). This system can be enabled in all pages of a specific namespace (such as ''user talk:'') or in specific pages. If you like the idea of using this system, there are three options, I think: | |||
# Enabling Flow in this page only, and then in specific user talk pages when requested (administrators can enable it using [[Special:EnableStructuredDiscussions]]. | |||
# Enabling Flow in all talk pages, including this one but not user talk pages (and only do so when requested by the user). | |||
# Enabling Flow in absolutely all talk pages. | |||
Let me know your thoughts! I'll ping some of the more active users, just in case you are not following this page: {{ping|amazingakita|Pod the Elder|TXJ|Bean3000}} --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 20:35, 3 April 2020 (UTC) | |||