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| Just wanting to document here that the diff at https://nonbinary.wiki/w/index.php?title=Butch&diff=4492&oldid=3088 seems to shift the tone of the article in a didactic way. This may not be what is intended here? The sentence "Although there is some controversy surrounding it, butch is an identity that only lesbians can have" seems to imply that some people disagree and the wiki itself is taking a side in this disagreement. Furthermore it seems a bit ambiguous (and perhaps mean) to say that one must be lesbian to be butch, but some people who are butch may not identify as lesbian (but they are still lesbian?). I don't want to make a revert as I am not part of either of these groups, but if someone else gives this a look over at some point that would be good. [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 16:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC) | | Just wanting to document here that the diff at https://nonbinary.wiki/w/index.php?title=Butch&diff=4492&oldid=3088 seems to shift the tone of the article in a didactic way. This may not be what is intended here? The sentence "Although there is some controversy surrounding it, butch is an identity that only lesbians can have" seems to imply that some people disagree and the wiki itself is taking a side in this disagreement. Furthermore it seems a bit ambiguous (and perhaps mean) to say that one must be lesbian to be butch, but some people who are butch may not identify as lesbian (but they are still lesbian?). I don't want to make a revert as I am not part of either of these groups, but if someone else gives this a look over at some point that would be good. [[User:Falkirks|Falkirks]] ([[User_talk:Falkirks|talk]]) 16:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
| :{{ping|Falkirks}} I agree. I'm not sure which would be the best way to rephrase the sentence, though. --[[User:NeoMahler|NeoMahler]] ([[User talk:NeoMahler|talk]]) 16:27, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
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| == Chi-chi vs kiki ==
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| *''...for LGBT women who are not strictly either femme or butch, but a combination. In the 1950s and 1960s, the term chi-chi was used to mean the same thing.''
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| I found [https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofle00bzim/page/140/mode/2up a sort of source for this] but it says the word is "kiki" not "chi-chi":
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| *''"Kiki": a term used from the 1940s through the 1960s for a lesbian who could be either butch or femme.'' --[[User:TXJ|TXJ]] ([[User talk:TXJ|talk]]) 01:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
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| == Butch flags seen "in the wild" ==
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| Just listing these here for reference of "What butch flag(s) is/are becoming common?"
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| * https://www.unco.edu/gender-sexuality-resource-center/resources/pride-flags.aspx - Displays the design by dorian--rutherford but also mentions that there is an alternate design by butchspace.
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/861904314/butch-lesbian-pride-flag-enamel-pin - Labrys design
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| * https://mypridestore.net/collections/pride-flags-1/products/butch-lesbian-lgbtqia-pride-flag - dorian--rutherford design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/713372497/butch-lesbian-pride-flag-lgbt-community - butchspace design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/984003100/butch-pride-wall-flag-single-reverse - butchspace design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/1177225915/pre-order-butch-v1-pride-flag-large-3-x - butchspace design
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| * https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/Butch-Pride-Plague-Doctor-by-soodie/42163735.EJUG5 - butchspace design
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| * https://www.redbubble.com/i/poster/Butch-Lesbian-Pride-Flag-by-identipride/79117349.E40HW - dorian--rutherford design
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| * https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/Revolutionary-Butch-by-corantus/81849643.EJUG5 - labrys design
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| * https://www.betweenthelinesclothing.com.au/collections/flags/products/butch-pride-wall-flag-36x60 - butchspace design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/1234053964/fem-attraction-pride-sunset-lesbian - butchspace design
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| * https://twitter.com/NikkiNineLives_/status/1658941391513309190 - dorian--rutherford design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/1277311962/lgbtqia-pride-flags-poster-pride-flags-1 - dorian--rutherford design
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| * https://www.etsy.com/listing/1198158150/protest-vinyl-sticker-pack-mix-and-match?sts=1 - butchspace design
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| --[[User:TXJ|TXJ]] ([[User talk:TXJ|talk]]) 11:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
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| == Use of "woman" throughout article ==
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| Although the article clearly states butch is often a nonbinary identity, the article regularly refers to butches as women or says "butch women." In place of "butch women," it would more inclusive to use the noun "butches."
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| The article also seems to treat the Butch identity as equivalent to the use of butch as a descriptor of masculinity. I understand this is a bit difficult given butch can be a sexuality label, gender label, expression label, and/or simply an aesthetics label; but the confusion of these reduces clarity.
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| :{{ping|Fluxjupyter}} looking at the article, it seems that every instance of "woman"/"women" is not interchangeable for "person" or another generic word. For example, in the sentence ''the writer Jewelle Gomez muses that '''butch and femme women''' in the earlier twentieth century may have been expressing their closeted transgender identity'', we can't change the fact that Jewelle Gomez referred to women specifically. The article already uses "butch" without specifying "woman" frequently ("woman" appears 27 times, "butch" appears over 100 times), basically whenever the data or view it describes isn't specific to women. That said, you're welcome to suggest edits! This is a wiki, after all :) --[[User:Ondo|Ondo]] ([[User talk:Ondo|talk]]) 04:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
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